755 Moore Rd.
Avon Lake, OH 44012
440-835-4166
Here are some pictures of what our lawn looked like 2 years ago. It was the thickest, deepest carpet of lush green grass in the neighborhood.
Was a Great Lawn, Now it looks Dead
JimHinsch@CSI.COM
We put our lawn in about 8 years ago. It was a sod lawn of Blue
Grass. Almost every neighbor seeded with fescue and/or rye.
A company out of Avon Lake, Ohio was responsible for keeping it looking
good. We followed their watering advice and let them apply fertilizer,
weed control, etc. as they recommended since the day we put down the sod.
The discussion history from the Lawn Forum regarding this lawn appears at the
end of this page. There are numerous spelling errors that sometimes make
reading difficult, so keep in mind the nature of the origin of the text - a live
forum of people who have a deep interest in great lawns.
In summary, as of November 9, 2002, we've had the original sod company give us an estimate of about $11,500 to replace the lawn in the spring and their expert came out and recommended we contact the Ohio extension agent, the government agency in Ohio that helps people with the plant growing issues. They have recommended we contact the department of agriculture if we suspect the lawn care company may have screwed up.
Lawn Tech has again come out (3 weeks ago) and took more samples and is allegedly getting the soil analyzed for possible contamination of various sorts. This test reputedly costs US$300-400, and is not like a soil test done to check for pH and nutrient content. Lawn Tech thus far has refused to take any responsibility for what happened to my lawn under their care, but has not said they won't either. They reserve judgment until all the tests are in. That's fair enough. We'll see.
Lawn Tech
755 Moore Rd.
Avon Lake, OH 44012
440-835-4166
Here are some pictures of what our lawn looked like 2 years ago. It was
the thickest, deepest carpet of lush green grass in the neighborhood.
Advice we followed from Lawn Tech:
The soil seems to be moist all the time. It is a clay soil with poor
drainage. The soil is very rich.
This year, our lawn looks dead.
Our lawn started turning brown in July. I was concerned that Lawn Tech never mentioned anything special to us. I contacted them and in August
they applied fertilizer and reported that our lawn was dormant.
Notice how weeds have filled in.
It is now the end of September, about 8 weeks after I called Lawn Tech.
They told me they took samples in August and were waiting for the results from a
lab in Columbus, Ohio.
Lawn Tech has made a number of speculations but now has decided it is a
fungus. They took more samples 2 weeks ago (mid-September) and we are
still waiting for those results, whereby we are supposed to have the exact
problem cultured and identified and be given a plan of action. Two weeks
ago when additional samples were being taken, the Lawn Tech representative
pointed out that the dry fertilizer pellets from fertilization in August were
still sitting embedded in the thatch.
Whatever problem our lawn has, it seems to stop at the edge of the
neighbor's lawn.
They have a different kind of grass.
I note that the area near our shed, typically a lower light area but also
an area that never gets chemical treatment from Lawn Tech is the only part of our
lawn doing well.
Notice the area around our tree. It had become essentially just dirt
and a new grass is growing there. The new grass is not blue grass.
The blades are straight and very thin.
The front tree lawn, which is on the north side of the house seems to have
a tiny bit of life left.
I notice bright healthy patches of various grasses growing right in the
center of the brown grass. Some are weeds but at least one is blue grass.
Close-ups taken from various parts of our lawn showing the grass in various
stages.
Timeline
August 1, 2001
October 22, 2001
June 10, 2002
June 11, 2002
July 26, 2002
September 30, 2002
October 2, 2002
Flattened Grass Blades
Spongy Grass
New Grass under Pin Oak
Weeds taking over a section in front
An Experiment in Progress
Raked out thatch, soil twisted up a bit with a 3-prong hand rake, a touch of
rapid grow, and a good soaking
October 3, 2002
Mysterious Pellet - these are all over our lawn, apparently left from Lawn
Techs fertilization in August.
The pellets are about 2-3 mm each. They are round and yellow.
pH testing of the pellets show alkaline (basic), not acidic.
October 5, 2002
Behind pine trees, grass also died, right up to the border with the neighbor
behind us.
Neither grass had been fertilized at all, or watered. The neighbor does
not have the same kind of grass that we do.
A strip of grass behind our shed also died, but not the grass right at the
edge.
In front of the pine trees, very close to the edge of the dirt bed, the grass
has thinned out but is not dead.
The new grass that I didn't plant, is Kentucky blue grass and is coming up
quickly and in good health.
Something that hurt my grass, knows about our neighbor's border.
The existence of tufts of healthy grass is confusing. Especially
amongst the weeds coming in.
The weeds are doing very well, and they stop just before the neighbor's
border.
Testing the pellets.
I crushed a couple dozen of those strange yellow pellets. The outer
coating is yellow and would not dissolve in water. The inside is white and
disolved. I've had a clipping from one of my white pines soaking in a
couple ounces of water with the disolved pellets. 3 days have passed and it
looks good.
Both areas with and without thatch problems died
The first phoo below is a section from the center of our lawn. What
you see is almost ALL thatch. The photo next to it is from a section alongside
the garden that encircles most of our house. This sample was taken about 6
inches from the edge. There is virtually NO thatch at all.
Discussion.
From http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/lawns/msg081723538273.html?62 ->
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| About 8 years ago I installed a sod lawn of Kentucky Blue Grass over
what was somewhat of a clay soil. With the spinkler system, the lawn was
as thick and green and flawless as I'd ever seen. Gorgeous.
During the next few years, we started to get some dead patches that looked like they were left by aliens or something. Odd shapes, totally dead in the middle, crisp edges that seemed evevn healthier than the rest of the lawn. Lawn care guy said it was blight, and that it would just have to work its' way out of it, and the lawn would get worse before it got better. Our lawn was always left long, cut frequently, watered heavily but less frequenly, airated, etc. A heavy thatch came quickly, to the point where even on the highest mower setting I thought the lawn was being cut too short (commercial mower) because the mower wheels would sink into the tatch. We did a thatching at the end of one year, and in the spring it didn't seem to make much difference. Still a very heavy thatch, and the lawn was getting more and more of those dead spots. We decided our lawn was over watered and/or because of the clay soil, did not have good drainage. The lawn care guy said since we watered well, and the drainage wasn't so good, the roots were not having to go deep to find water, and were not establishing into the soil. OK, this year we never turned the spinkler system on. I had thought that the law would just go yellow and dormant. Maybe it is, but we had a very heavy rain and there are few spots where the grass shows signs of life. T The entire lawn is yellow and looks dead. When you look close, the soil at the top seem water-logged and rotting., but it did just rain heavily. What should we do. Thatch in late august, airate, and then just follow a normal lawn care program and also maybe overseed with something other than bluegrass? Should we rip up the lawn, have the soil removed and some good stuff put down and then install a new lawn, either planted or sod (US$5000-6000)? While what looks like no way possible to recover, could this lawn just be dormant now? It has been very hot. Jim Hinsch |
|
| Consider core aerating then topdressing the lawn with either
topsoil, Earth Blend compost or TechnaGro. All three are
available in the Cleveland area. With Earth Blend or TechnaGro
you can topdress from 1/4" to 3/4" and they are known
to reduce the thatch layer. Call the supplier and ask questions.
They'll be glad to help you.
Plan for an organic lawn care program beginning in the spring. Michael |
Here is a link that might be useful: Great Stuff
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| What was your chemical program and watering schedule before
this year, they have everything to do with your soil quality and
the turfs' ability to handle drought stress. Clay makes a wonderful soil base, it's rich in minerals, you're lucky to have it. The only problem is, when left un-ammended or treated with chemicals, it doesn't drain well and valuable nutrients remain 'locked up' in the soil instead of being processed for use as lawn food. You've got several issues to deal with, please take your time to educate yourself before rushing to the store for chems or re-sodding the whole lawn. Until you solve the underlying problems, which takes time and thought, you will have the same problems later. If you have thatch, your soil may be 'dead', you need to figure out 1) if it really was thatch, why? Thatch is not normal and mechanical de-thatching can do more harm than good and 2) What's with the 'dead' soil and how to fix it? If your soil is healthy and well established it will drain, as well as hold moisture (yes, even clay) and will also 'digest' grass clippings and 'thatch' before it can build up to a noticable amount, even if you mulch your clippings and large numbers of fall leaves (yes, even in clay). Without knowing the whole story/history of your lawn it's wasteful to reccommend any particular remedy, but will suggest that you read all you can about organic lawn care, here and elsewhere on the internet. Something simple like adding compost on top of the lawn and watering properly can make a huge difference by next spring, but not if you dump herbicides or pesticides on top of it. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Hey Jim, I hope you are still following this thread. What was the result of your soil tests? Did you take a sample to your local extension office for help i.d. ing your problem? Hope that you will post back with some details. Sometimes the numbers do mean something and I suspect that you may indeed have a honest to goodness chemical imbalance on your hands. Get that soil test done and please post back with your results. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Soil Test: We has a soil test done when the original brown spots started showing up, as well as when we put the lawn in for the first time, two different companies. All I was told after each test was that there wasn't a problem and we were not recomended to make any specific adjustments. Watering previous 5 years: The areas of the grass that seemed like they weren't getting enough water, or because the water ran of due to being a bit higher, I adjusted to water longer and the parts that seemed like they were getting oversoaked, I adjusted to water for shorter periods. We watered about every other day. Chemical treatment: In subsequent years, we just had what they called a "pre-emergent" put on the lawn, as recommended by the people who do that stuff. I think they put it on onece in the spring and once in the fall. Not sure about the fall application, but for sure in April. We did this every year for about 5 or 6 years and combined with hand pulling,our lawn has been kept pretty much weed free. We also subscribed to fertilizing service. They came every month or so and fretilized as they thought it needed it. Thatch: We did de-thatch one time late in the year (October?) and the lawn looked really torn up after that but it was fine the next spring. Pesticides: Aerating: We have had the lawn aerated lots of times. A couple years ago, I paid to have it aerated 12 times in a day because once just didn't seem like a lot. It left our lawn covered with the plugs, which we did our best to rake up but the lawn was still covered in plugs in the end. Death: Appearance: After having not watered at all this year, the lawn looks flat and dead, the soil is mushy and wet (recent rain), and the only part of the lawn that looks OK is the part we never watered, fertilized, and we thought would die from lake of sunlight. This is the narrow strip between our shed and the fence! A professional lawn guru: Do such people exist? Would photos of our lawn when it looked good and how it looks now be of any help? |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Hi Jim. There are lots of people who will do what you want to to get your lawn back to the level it once was...even in Cleveland! LOL...Just kidding! Start with another soil test and do the test thoroughly. Then call around or drive around and take note of what lawn and garden services are popular in your neighbohood. Write down their phone numbers from their posted signs or from their trucks and ask the homeowner for a reference. Don't be bashful. Most people love talking about this stuff. Of course you want to take note of those lawns that look great when your lawn looks worst. Without the test results it's hard to even guess at what might be going on with your lawn. It's easy to just say it has been a victim of overwatering and overfertilizing. Sometimes its best to do nothing for awhile and see what happens. My suggestion is to get calls in to at least 3 vendors who do lawn restoration as their primary business and listen carefully to their proposals. If any one of them suggests doing anything without first doing a soil test, immediately drop that one from consideration. I'd love it if you posted back with the detailed results of the test. Good luck. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| I ordered a soil test, and will post back here with the results. I also had a word with the company that has been "caring" for the lawn and they are sending someone out. I'll post what they say. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Bluegrass is known for producing a lot of thatch. If your lawn
environment were exemplary, it may not be a problem in that
organisms may eat the thatch as quickly as it's being made. In
reality, you'll probably never reach this equilibrium point.
If you want a super thick lawn without thatch problems and you plan on resodding, I suggest going with a tall fescue lawn. The downside of tall fescue is it doesn't spread to fill holes as quickly as bluegrass, but it requires less fertilizer and water and has less thatch. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| I sure as heck hope I don't have to resod. If that is the case, I think I'll seed it this time. I can't accept that I had the best lawn in the neighborhood, and that I'm now the only one that has to put a new lawn in. I was pretty much the only one who sodded and everybody else seeded. I've got the only bluegrass in the neighborhood too, which is partly why it looked so good compared to the others, who have fescue lawns. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Do ~not~ believe that Bluegrass is more prone to developing
thatch, it just isn't true. Keep your Bluegrass but fire your
'lawn care professional'. It'll all work out, just keep your head and proceed slowly. The biggest problem you've had, from what I gather, is over-watering and using copious amounts of chemicals (regular lawn service spraying). I'd check the yellow pages for organic lawn care, they're more likely to feed and condition your soil instead of concentrating on the grass because clay can easily be conditioned to drain well, give up nutrients and retain moisture longer during dry spells. KBG is a very care-free cool weather grasses, it's the soil you've got a problem with. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| I used to live on the west side of Cleveland, and a lot of
those clay soils are more clay than soil and might stress a
susceptible grass like bluegrass. I now live about 30 miles
east, in a belt of sandy soil, and have discovered that even
tall fescue has its stress limits.
I once fixed a languishing lawn in some clay loam by improving the soil. This really worked, just like the organic proponents say it will. I added leaf mold - which is sold locally in Cuyahoga County - to an existing lawn. I added a lot of it. I just raked it onto the surface during the rainy season. It was an instant fix - by the next growing season I had the lushest most healthy looking grass I could imagine. This is probably financially impractical over a large a surface area. It also is not a permanent fix, and period booster applications will be needed. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| I'm getting some good suggestions. The soil samples were taken
and sent to Ohio State for analysis so it will be a short while
before we get the results. Some of the areas that had stange
cirlces last year had samples taken as well where they say they
will culture and identify the specific type of blight or fungus
before recommending our course of action. We'll report back here
as we have info.
I did let them know about the recommendations for leaf mold (they said, essentially that's the same as compost very rich in nutrients) and they said quite possibly, but to wait for the results of the tests. I was a little irked that I had to call and get them on this, I mean didn't they notice last time they fertilized that the lawn that was number 1 now looks horrible? We'll see. About the posted signs and lawns in good condition. Not a good thing to do. We had the best lawn, and anybody that followed us is probably in the same boat because every house in the neighborhood is about the same age, and we are the only bluegrass lawn. We are going to stick with the bluegrass if we don't have to start over. Some say bluegrass is a problem, other say properly cared for in our area, even on clay, it isn't. I'm somewhat confident we won't have to start over. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Thatch is a bad sign. If your soil is healthy, it should be
able to easily decompose anything it produces. After all, the
material came out of that soil, so you shouldn't be able
oversaturate it by letting the clippings stay. Besides, why pay
someone to take you nitrogen away and then abother person to
bring you more nitrogen?
As far as watering, an inch a week is a good rule of thumb. Put an empty tuna can out on your lawn next time you water - it's about an inch deep. Depending on the type of sprinkler system you have, you might be watering enough for a whole week in just one hour. Overwatering makes the lawn prone to fungal attacks (big dead spots) and drought related problems. You can wait for the results of the soil test if you want, but they don't really have any baring on whether you should put leaf mold/compost on your lawn - you should. By taking away your natural organic material and dosing the area with tons of chemicals, you have likely driven away a large portion of the natural microbes that help keep plants healthy. You might want to check out soil and compost forum - they have some tips for compost teas and other quick was to get your soil in prime lawn growing shape. PS What does it say about your "lawn care professionals" that the only bit of lawn that looks good is the part they didn't touch? Fire them! Why pay someone to destroy your lawn?
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RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Your comment about the thatch is something I didn't know. Now
I do and I wan't have the clippings taken away.
To be fair to the lawn company, the only part they didn't touch is also the only part that isn't in direct sunlight because it is between my shed and fence. And for the trouble I have had, perhaps it is all my fault for over watering (sure was green the first two years though). The original sod installer said that blue grass grows so well that it can get too thick and begin to choke itself. Is that true? That's what I thought was happening and to not add fuel to the fire, I had the clippings taken away. The thatch is/was thick and he said it was a sign of watering too much, causing the roots to not have to grow deep into the soil to find water. That's part of the idea behind not watering my lawn this year, to get the roots to go deep in search of water. I'm not sure about your watering instructions. Doesn't the amount I water depend on how hot it is outside? Over what period of time shout that 1 inch of water be put down. All at once, over 3-4 days, or spread it out over a week? Once there is a big thatch, what can be done? I've already power-raked it with professional detatcher (it was so thick that the rent-a-center ones would burn out the belt on the drive within minutes and we had to go rent a more powerful one - took all day to do it.) and although it looked like it was pretty torn up, it was pretty much looking good the next season. The lawn care professionals really just put down pre-emergent weed killer in the spring and summer and fertilize. I pay them so I don't have to do it. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Good job Jim, you'll be so glad you took the time to test! I should elaborate why I get tiffy whenever I read posts that make it sound like clay soil is a bad thing~ I used all the fertilizers, the 4 step routine, etc., for many years on this lawn. Most years the grass would do great, but it was very obvious when I got lazy or cut corners with a cheaper brand so I'd dump more on, and lime, because that's what 'they' said to do. I put epsom salt on the roses to promote growth because 'they' raved about it... The soil here defined 'clay', you could literally work it into a sculpture and fire it in a kiln. Sticky, clumpy, gooey clay. Along came the mulching mower and I noticed that the ground no longer cracked when it dried. A few years later I began mulch mowing leaves (a LOT of leaves) every fall and the soil improved even more. I quit using chemical fertilizers and found the grass clippings disapeared faster. Then I had the soil tested. My PH was plenty high, so the lime had been a bad idea. The lawn tested fairly high in Magnesium, but the Rose beds were overloaded! My clay soil is loaded with all the right nutrients but not available to the KBG as easily as they were to some weeds, so I began a program of naturally, gradually lowering the PH with organic matter (despite lab recc. of adding lots of sulfur throughout the year.. Quick fix = temporary improvement.) Clay is wonderful to grow in, you just gotta be smarter than you soil, be patient, and be willing to go againsed the grain of modern commercial trends (ie. chemlawn, scotts, etc.), so's not to become a slave to their 'program'. My grandparents knew all the things I'm just now learning and they all had great lawns. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| JimHinsch - There are a ton of variables that go into how much / how often you have to water and I don't profess to know the optimal levels for every given temp/humidity/soil type etc. Most lawns require about an inch a week - a little more when it evaporates quickly, a little less when it doesn't. Just because it is warm doesn't mean water evaporates quickly. Have you ever tried to dry a beacktowel or paint something on a very humid day? If you have compacted clay soil, you probably don't want to dump an inch of water on it at a time though or much of it will run off. If you are feeling fancy, you can water for a couple of minutes, wait an hour or two and then water more deeply. 1-2 times a week works fine for me in clay. The goal is to get the grass roots to reach farther down into the soil where the moisture level is not as effected by what is happening at the surface. Keeping the surface soil consistantly moist doesn't do that. The lawn is a living thing, so think of feeding and watering it similarly to yourself. If you ate slim-fast shakes and 10 gallons of water a day for a years, you would be in pretty bad shape. If you eat a balanced diet in reasonable proportions and drank when you are thirsty, you would likely be doing OK. You don't need to put your lawn on a starvation diet to make up for past mistakes, just get it on a healthy regimen and let nature take its course. As far as the thatch goes, don't worry about it. Spread a little compost/compost tea around and it will take care of itself. Nature does not behave like a run-a-way freight train unless we interfer too much. It will take a little bit of time to restore the equilibrium, but once you get there you shouldn't have to worry about it again. If it really bothers you, you can rake the loose bits up so it isn't so visible. As far as the lawn care guys go, I'm not against hiring a service. It just seems like you aren't so pleased with the job they are doing and the results you are getting. You might want to consider going with a local company that may be more attentive to your particular lawncare needs. If your lawn is completely brown and the service doesn't seem to notice, I'd be a little upset the next time I had to write them a check.
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RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Jim sorry about your situation there have been many good suggestions and I hope you have learned something BUT your situation requires Hands on Evaluatuin and correction. Call your local Ag ext ask if they can help or if they will recomend a LAWN EXPERT someone with the education and experience to solve the many problems you have. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| What is "local Ag ext"? I sincerely appreciate all the help I've been getting here but this message from TexasMike sounds like what I really want - someone else to worry about it. I'm not sure I've got the time it obviously takes to be so educated in raising a perfect lawn. I don't even cut my own grass, for lack of time. The education I'm getting here though is going to help me in my interaction with whoever does take responsibility for giving me a carpet of lush green grass. I'm so ready to fire the current company and go organic but they sounded so enthusiastic about getting to the bottom of this I'll at least wait for the test results and their recommended action. I'm really surprised to hear that clay is actually a good thing. I was thinking clay was the enemy and that to get a permanently good lawn, I'd have to have the clay scraped up and replaced with special soil. I've got a sprinkler system, so I can set up watering any way I want. I'm surprised about the two-minutes on, wait an hour, then turn it on again. I was told to always give the lawn a good soaking, never short spurts. When it is hot out, I think much of the water just dries up before it gets a chance to soak in. This is one of the reason I like to start very early in the morning. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Agricultural Extension Service It is a county/State agency who
helps with Agricultural issues affecting your local Area They
may have a Master Gardener Program where you can tap into local
Resources who would be equipped to handle your situation Good Luck |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| I brag about never watering, but know that if you have a
built-in system you might as well use it and totally agree that
short spurts like that will do the most good, especially in
rough clay. (water enough to break the surface dryness and soak
in for a little while, then finish up.) I wouldn't do lawncare myself if I could afford not to, but I know this forums' knowlege will save your sanity. I suspect some snot-faced salesboy has a pretty good track record for sign-ups in your area and goes home to his condo every night. (shhhh, bad barb!) I just talked to an elderly neighbor (I check up on them sometimes), he had a phone call out of the blue, someone offered him a steel front door for 'only' 1,400. installed... He called Lowe's and they quoted him 400. installed for the same steel door, Lowe's did the job and he's tickled with it. Salespeople are preditors nowadays, if they have to ask you to use their services, you don't want them. The ones you want barely advertise (at most, name and number in the phone book, no ad display), they don't need to with all the 'word of mouth' praise from satisfied customers. end rant here. Hold your ground (heh) and don't let anybody do anything you're not 100% comfortable with. If that means you get educated, then, well... you learned how to drive a stick shift, eh? ... eh? ..(?)
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RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Jim: I think you're getting great advice from the people here.
Clay soil is very rich. If you put a layer of compost on the
lawn it will start to naturally aerate and amend your tightly
compacted clay soil . You don't need much, 1/4 to 1/3 inch
should be fine. Then fertilize with an organic lawn fertilizer.
Think about making aerated compost tea, it would add much needed microbes to your clay soil. I started using aerated compost tea on the lawn this year and simply can't believe the results. (We have claysoil also.) Rich, lush and full of life. Using organic amendments is what you need IMHO!! I'd start putting organic amendments on your lawn immediately! Btw, a few years ago a lawn service company performed thatch tests on many lawns in our neighborhood in hopes of gaining business. The tests were free. Wouldn't you know it, my two neighbors that use chemical fertilizers had too much thatch. My lawn had practically none. Why? Because I use organic amendments. I asked the lawn guys how they hope to keep thatch off of lawns if they keep treating solely with chemicals. They laughed and the boss said we'll just keep de-thatching and aerating. That's a good way to keep business isn't it. They just treat the problem, not cure it. That way you will need their services forever. My neighbors didn't subscribe to the lawn service, however, they still use only chemicals to feed their lawns. I'm sorry to say their lawns still look real bad. I told them what they needed to do but they said it was too much work. Oh well some people just don't like gardening. Their good guys but don't like getting their hands dirty or getting sore backs. (I'm joking about the sore backs.) You won't be sorry by switching to organic amendments. Apply the compost once, start keeping the grass clippings on the lawn (by using a mulching mower) and use organic fertilizers, compost tea, etc. and you'll never look back.
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RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Hey RDak can you tell us how to make Aerated Compost Tea. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Simple recipe:
Shovel of compost Slosh it around frequently untill it starts to smell yiesty and earthy. If it starts to stink, it needs more air. This generally takes 3-7 days depending on you compost and temps. You can add things to that like a sugar source (molasses or meal) and get fancy with the way you keep oxygen in the water (add bubblers). You can add other things to make it more rich in nutrients and not just a bacteria/fungus source. Doing those things allows you to selectively promote beneficial microbes and make a more potent mixture. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Sometimes, when I re-read a post, I see something hidden
between the lines... Jim, you say the soil was tested twice before by 2 different companies and no recommendations were made either time... I thought that a little odd and wondered if you ever saw those tests or knew which lab ran your samples? Then, you say; "I'm ready to fire the current company, but..." It sounds like they are the ones who collected the soil samples, they sent it off to the lab, they will receive the results and tell you what the lab recommends? I suspect that your soil will test 'normal', again except for nitrogen, and maybe one other value that they can fix with a special ammendment. Maybe it's my nature to question such things, but I'd feel better knowing YOU were the one who took the samples, sent them to the lab and had the results faxed or mailed to YOU instead of 'them'. Did anyone see them take the samples from your lawn? It should have taken them at least 15 minutes to get a decent sampling from all over the yard. Sorry to be so suspicious, but if I tested someones lawn, they would recieve a copy of the test results without a doubt.. unless I didn't ~want~ them to see, if ya know what I mean. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Mike: Go to this site to get the instructions for making
aerated compost tea. It's easy to do.
http://www.taunton.com/finegardening/pages/G00030_p3.asp |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| With regards to samples, one sample was taken just before the
sod lawn was put down and one pas taken when the company first
began to service our lawn (which was just a couple months after
the lawn was put down). I never saw the results. That was years
ago. I did let them know that I was going to want to see the
results this time and they told me no problem. They are
reserving diagnosis until the lab results come back, however I
just got a paper from one of their people that says our lawn is
"dormant".
Funny that nobody else has a dormant lawn. We are not the only people that have not watered their lawn, but we are the only people that have not done so that I know of, that also have all blue grass. I have no proof they took a sample from my lawn. Maybe I'll test the soil myself. I'll just have to look up what I'm supposed to test for and what methods are typically used. Regarding the tea, that's great info and if I can't find an "expert" to take responsibility for my lawn, I'll just share this info with whoever I happen to hire, probably just another landscaper with whom I'll be the one giving specific instructions. I did some preliminary lookups on "Agricultural Extension Service" for the Cleveland area and didn't have any luck. I'm looking for a number to call where I can get a recommendation for someone to take responsibility for my lawn. I don't have that big of a lawn (100' x 200') but it's important to me because I paid a lot for the lawn and sprinkler system and we are on a corner so it is high visibility.
|
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Jim, I think THIS
is what you're looking for.
I can't wait to hear back from you on your test results. Please let us all know. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Ohio Extension, Cuyahoga County
Another Link| And HERE is the Ohio State Extension Home Page. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Ohio State Extension Home Page
Sorry To Be A Pest| And THIS is the link to the lawn section of the Ohio Extension. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Ohio Extension, Lawn Page
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Any results yet, Jim? |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Nothing yet. They said they'd contact me when they got the results. I'll give them a call and get an estimated time. Thanks for checking. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Still nothing? |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Surely they have returned your results by now. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Thanks for keeping up on this Bruce and maintaining interest.
I got annoyed and called the lawn fertilizing company two weeks ago. They said they still hadn't gotten their results back. I told them to come out again. We looked at the lawn together as they speculated about 20 different things, from an enemy pouring gasoline to grubs to fungus to sabatoge with round-up. Of course, this was just they guy taking the sample. A week after they took the last sample, I made a call and spoke to one of the "experts" at Lawn Tech and I was told that we have a fungus, but to be sure exactly which one and to not speculate, we should wait for the lab results. The soil test, I was told (they said they mailed it to me last week but I haven't gotten it yeet), shows there is no problem with the soil, pH is pretty good, etc. While we were looking at the grass, we pulled up various sections. He said "smell that"? That alive underneath still. That's good. The roots were not very deep, almost like new sod. Apparently the lawn never established a good deep root system because it was pretty easy to pull up. The ground underneath is very moist, even though we have not watered this year. In July and August it did get very hot, but the soil seemed to remain unusually moist. It would be hard and dry during the day but by the cooler evening, it would feel moist, almost wet. In the mean time, I've posted pictures, including very good close-up shots of the lawn blades in various stages of life and death so that anybody who wants to take a guess can do so. See my lawn, before, after, history, and close-ups of the grass blades at www.MasterComputerGroup.com/lawn. I will post again when the lawn company gives their final analysis. By the way, 2 weeks ago I did an experiment. I watered an 2x2 foot section every other day with a 5 gallon bucket of water and gave it an initial treatment with Rapid Grow to see if it would come alive at all. I made no difference whatsoever. When the company had mentioned maybe grubs, I said "how come the grubs would stop at the edge of my neighbors' lawn, and how come the grubs didn't kill the grass around my shed, the only area that you guys did not treat? "Good question", I was told. CLick here to go to my page: Click on any thumbnail for a closeup view: Jim |
Here is a link that might be useful: Was a good lawn, now it looks dead
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Actually, it sounds like natural progression. Over watering and use of chemical fertilizers often lead to thatch buildup. Once the thatch layer reaches a certain thickness it's no longer able to withstand dry weather, no matter how damp the soil. It crashed and burned. The lawn care company should have seen it coming and taken steps before the thatch got so thick.. I understand they suggested to cut back watering to 2 or 3 times per week, deeply, but that advice came too late. If you were to cut back to 2 to 3 times per week, that should have taken place shortly after the grass germinated (after the first couple mowings) and then cut further back the next season to 1 or 2 times per week at most. The fact that your soil remains wet is a sign that the organisms that should be working the soil for you aren't there anymore (chemical ferts). Also, I have serious doubts about a company that would apply fertilizer on a dormant lawn in the midst of summer. Then there's the mysterious test result that you never see. Numerous soil tests to determine the cause of the dead grass. Fusarium Blight with no possible cure. Have you checked with the BBB lately? |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Wow, that was a seriously beautiful lawn, my condolences. really. Thats a heart breaker. Hope you figure it out. I have a hard time believing that such a total loss could be from thatch. Good luck. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Took the words out of my mouth! Likewise, wow! What a waste and what a shame. Your "service" was seriously off the mark. Have you asked what kind of training and credentials they have in turf management? Do they belong to any industry trade associations? |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Are you sure that the grass isn't dormant? You mentioned that
you haven't watered the lawn at all this year. And this has been
one dry year. If I hadn't watered my lawn, it would be looking
similar to yours, I'm sure. Blue Grass looks that way when it's
dormant ... and yours is probably real dormant. That, plus the
fact that you watered it too frequently in years past. That's
why the roots are so short. You were right in your approach this
year - to get the roots to grow longer, you need to water less
frequently. But, the lawn would need to get water (still) about
once a week. You can't just stop.
Well, anyway ... here's hoping that you get it figured out. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the
We had one company put in our lawn, another put in the sprinkler system, I cut the lawn myself the first couple years, then hired a service. The fertilizing company (Lawn Tech) was hired based on the recommendation of the guy who installed the Lawn (Bill Soeder). Bill Soeder told me that sod will grow well even on concrete if you water it enought and give it feritlizer, and told me to water the hell out of it the first year until it establishes itself, and recommended Lawn Tech, the fertilizing company. I didn't check with the BBB, but never have ever before for anything else either. No, I'm not sure it isn't dormant. Why would mine be the only one dormant, as I'm not the only one that doesn't water (but I am the only one with a relatively new sod lawn made up of BlueGrass that wasn't watered that I know of)? My friends lives some houses down and he didn't water his at all this year either. His is a different kind of grass and he has more shade by his is green. But again, I'm not sure of anything, that's why I posted the description and photos. As far is it drying out because it was a hot summer? Well, I kept an eye on it and the grownd was always moist, even soggy in the evening but there were times in August when the ground felt bone dry mid-day, only to be wet again at night. I've had about 6 white pines die in this ground and I'm told
it is becaues they sit on wet grounds. All replaced pines have
been put in raised beds, and not one has died. I went to different lawn sites and read the descriptions of various funghi and looked at the closeups. To tell you the truth, the differences between funghi are mostly very subtle and I found that taking pieces of grass for microscopic viewing was a waste of time mostly. Pick any two blades of grass and get very a very different look with each blade. The pictures I took show the blades are covered with tiny
black spots:
Plant Type: Cool Season Mix Fertilizer Recommendations, Lbs/Sq Ft: It seems pretty middle of the road. |
Here is a link that might be useful: My lawn story
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Middle of the road indeed, we have very similar soils, you and
I, right down to the KBG. Cool season grass like KBG don't usually go completely dead looking during summer (like zoysia looks in winter), KBG maintains some green. Yours is dead. I am very sorry that your lawn died and am eally trying to help you and anyone else in your position to understand... Call me a raving lunatic.. then look up 'lawn thatch' on the internet, come back and set me straight, eh. Sinking mower, fungus, quit watering after over-watering,
company fertilizing dead lawn. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Jim I believe at this point it is time to Realize your current
lawn care company will be of no help and to seek EXPERT advice
from a Highly trained and Educated Lawn Professional. This is
only an opinion but if I am understanding correctly your lawn
was fine Last year and only this year did you have a problem.
That would indicate a catostophic event to cause this much
damage I do not believe grubs or fungus or thatch could kill
your whole lawn in one season I could be wrong but it seems like
the lawn company may have sprayed something lethal on your lawn
I am not talking about over time I am talking about a one time
mistake That killed your lawn. I believe it is time to start
thinking about a New Lawn
Good Luck |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| I would have suspected the same, they did do wrong by
fertilizing a dormant lawn, but they are paid to fertilize every
month (high maint. gone wild) Which brings me back to....
|
Here is a link that might be useful: Cornell.edu on Thatch
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Barb, you sent me to
http://www.cce.cornell.edu/suffolk/grownet/lawnmain/thatch.htm.
There, it says "If the lawn has more than 1 1/2 inches of
thatch, it will be necessary to have the sod stripped off. The
lawn may then be reestablished from seed or sod."
Well, I had more than that about 4 years ago when it was so thick the professionals could not cut it and leave it long -the wheels were sinking into it. Perhaps the lawn was already doomed at that point. Damn, that lawn cost me over $5000 and my water bill for the first 4 years probably came to another $5000. That's partly why I decided not to continue with the heavy watering. I just couldn't justify that kind of a water bill. When the neighbors all compared bills, I laughed at the second biggest for a 3 month period ($800), as mine was double that. Ouch! The lawn was doomed because nobody ever told me what causes thatch other than "rapid growth", nor that thatch buildup will spell the death of my lawn. Wow. I've got a friend with a new KBG lawn that is gorgeous. He has been watering the hell out of it. I better warn him. TexasMike. The mysterious crop cirles started 2 years ago. One year it was there, but kind of mild. The next year it was getting bad. That was last year. I thought water was promoting this so smart me, decided to kill the fungus by letting my lawn go dry and dormant. Damn. Exactly the worse thing I could have done. Wrong move and nobody warned me. This is where I blame Lawn Tech. They give written advice about 4 times a year and their advice never said, don't let your lawn go dry, as the soil may be moist but the lawn will dry out even on top of the moist soil, and die. So here are the events that caused this death: 1. Bill Soeder, they man who layed the sod told me to water heavily. He left out the part about not continuing this heavy watering as it will cause thatch. 2. Lawn Tech, when I complained about the big water bill, said that some people just don't water at all and let it go dormant. They trade a yellow lawn during the hot months for a low water bill. No! Can't do that on a lawn that has not established a good root system. 3. Lawn Tech, when I complained my grass was getting crop circles, told me to just sit tight, it would get worse before it got better, that anti-fungals don't work very well, and that it would come around in a year or two. They told me it was from all the water. 4. Lawn Tech, when I complained the grass wasn't as deep green 3 years agos as in prior years, the owner told me, "We aren't stingy with the fertilizer. Our customers want a green lawn so we give them a little extra fertilizer, the lawn grows like hell, and everybody is happy". This is bad news. Excess growth causes thatch and thatch causes death. 5. Me. I do everything to extremes. Water makes it green? I watered and watered. Dry will cause it to seek deep roots? I dried it dead. And Barb, I believe you know what you are talking about. High Maintenance gone wild. Fertilize fertilize. Nobody every told me that high maintenance will kill your lawn by producing thatch which will make it susceptible to death by dry (no watering) or death by disease (continued watering). 6. Lawn Tech ferilized a dormant lawn. That was likely the nail in the coffin. I have it in writing that they applied fertilizer while describing my lawn as dormant in August. TexasMike, there is your catostrophic event. A lawn that has a poorly established root system, heavy thatch, dormant from no water, was hit with a heavy fertilization. So much so that 6 weeks later when we looked at the soil together (myself and Lawn Tech), we were finding the dry fertilizer still present. See the timeline below (and at www.MasterComputerGroup.com/lawn). What do you think? June 10, 2002 June 11, 2002 July 26, 2002
September 30, 2002 So who killed my lawn? I did. They did. The result of half-advices by the semi-pros, told to an overly enthusiastic owner who took everything they said as gospel, never realizing that more is not more, more is worse. Contact an expert? I thought you folks were the experts! The kind of person that hangs out on the lawn forum. I know about forums. That is where you find the experts. I'm prepared for a new lawn. Here's the questions: 1. When? Now, later this Fall, or wait until Spring. 2. What? KBG or other. Barb, can KBG be sucessfully managed long term here in Northeast Ohio on clay? 3. How? What say the experts, sod or seed? Prior I was told the main issue is now or later, if now, you pay more as sod costs more. At the time, we got sod for a price similar to what we had been quoted for seed. 4. How? Do we have to rip up the old fungus dead grass? We'll have a chance to adust the soil. Any soil preparations recommended? 5. Why? Should Lawn Tech be held responsible? Do I have a case based on fertilizing a heavily thatched dormant KBG lawn that had been showing signs of blight the year before? This seems to have beeh the event that took the lawn from yellow but still growing and requiring mowing (every 2 weeks), to totally dead. 6. Who? I'm not going to do this myself. I don't have the time or the pleasure from it. Aside from contacting my local extension, talking to neighbor about who did their lawn (what about the neighbors that talked to me 3 years ago, lusting after my thick green carpet), I figure I've got a choice between a company or the local neighbor kid who can do it under my wife's instruction (she's following these messages closely) and use the local green house for guidence during the process. What say the experts?
|
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Love those photos, that web page! Love that you've included
names and dates.. I love it all!
First, see about the possibility of sodding at this time of year by your origional sod guy, he may work well with you on this (site prep, ammendment recommendations) and he did do a darn good job last time, eh? Your KBG is still nice out by the shed isn't it? I took the liberty of checking the BBB; I get the feeling they will work with you, especially if the owner sees your website, timeline, photos, etc.. They may learn as much as you did and could help many other homeowners (if they change their attitude a tad... the customer may want thicker and greener, but these people need to know the possible eventual outcome and how to spot problems before they lead to total destruction) I don't see how you could go wrong working with all the same people, now that you all know what to watch for. (assuming they get their heads out of their ..., admit their part and stand up to the plate, because it was inexcusable to fertilize what they did and when). Might want to add a clause to their contract with you, eh? You will save tons of money on lawn care per year in the future, so the price of sod is no biggie right now (assuming it's not too close to winter). One more thought, if you find yourself with a lush thick turf again, seriously consider spreading corn meal on the lawn as precaution, or even if you find fungus on your turf again, (livestock feed quality) corn meal will do no harm and has proven effective on many turf fungus problems. I hope everything works out well, please let us know of
progress and share pictures of your new lawn.. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| If you look at the pictures taken in June and July, look at
the lawns in the background. They all went bad. Still, I think
this one had some fungus helping it go south.
When I look at the close-ups of the blades, I see fungus all over them. And you say you had "crop circles?" These are called fairy rings. They are caused by different fungi, all of which respond to corn meal treatment, IF you have the underlying soil microbes to eat up the fungus. If your thatch built up as deep as it sounds, you evidently don't have the necessary soil microbes. It sounds like your lawn care professionals kept the spray mix just right to kill off the microbes. Then with your [over]watering program, the pathogenic fungus came in and took over with nothing to stop it. Stopping watering doesn't kill fungus. Before you spend a ton of money on redoing the lawn, are you willing to try a little experiment? Get a bag of cheap compost from Wal-Mart or anywhere else. Don't use anything that claims to be sterilized. And get a bag of corn meal from the grocery store. Spread the compost on an area of dead grass so that it is thin enough you don't have any of the compost piled up. Use a broom to sweep it down into the thatch and off the grass blades. Then go over that same area with the corn meal. Use about 1/2 cup per square foot. Water all that in in the morning and let is sit for a week to see if anything starts to turn green right there. If you're not totally dead, you might get some greening up. If you're totally gone, maybe nothing will happen. Compost has the microbes you need to eat thatch, feed the grass, and protect it from fungus attacks. Corn meal encourages a beneficial fungus called Trichoderma. Trichoderma eats other fungi for lunch. Universities around the country are showing corn meal to be a broad spectrum benefit against fungus diseases on turf, peanuts, roses, tomatoes, and other ornamentals. If you decide to go organic with your future lawn, corn meal will be your number one tool against sudden death from fungus. Using an organic program you can have a lawn equally attractive to the lawn you just lost. The only difference will be that you will have no thatch (and no fungus). Click on this link and scroll to the bottom for a FAQ on organic lawn care. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| I'll do it today. I've already got about 10 experiments going
right now while I wait to see what Lawn Tech has to say. From
various levels of raking, with and without rapid grow, with and
without the raked up dead grass covering it, with the soil
twisted up with a small hand rake and without, ... What have I
got to lose.
I went around this morning pulling up grass in different sections of decay, and along the neighbor's lawn, which is starting to die about up to 1-2 feet along my edge. What I found was where there was any green at all, I had to really tear at it to get it up and it brought soil with it. Where it was really dead, it came up pretty easy. The ground underneath ranged from swampy to moist (where there was at least some grass). All areas had tons of earth worms. I ran into a few grubs too. Maybe 5 altogether. One friend told me it was grubs, because I could pull the lawn up easily like a carpet, and that the reason I don't see any is because they ate the roots and left. Any possibility it was white grubs and the fungus came after the lawn died? I figured if it was fungus, it would have died a patchy death, wouldn't it? It didn't. It turned light green, then yellow, then brown, then the blades laid down flat and swampy, and finally, they dried up and formed a very spongy flatten out onto the soil. It did not happen in patches. It happened all together.
October 2, 2002 Flattened Grass Blades Spongy Grass New Grass under Pin Oak Weeds taking over a section in front An Experiment in Progress There were some other bugs that are black too but they burrowed too fast for me to catch any. Worms everywhere though. Regular earth worms. I remember when it rained real hard last year, the worms came up and they were so bad that the sidewalks and the driveway were brown with them. They were everywhere. You could not walk the driveway and avoid crushing them by the dozens. I was standing outside about 5am starting down at the lawn and I noticed the some blades of grass were moving. Something was eating down there. I went for that spot and that when I saw what maybe was a beetle but it took off too quick to tell. I don't know if this is good news or bad. When I read the reports of various things that can kill a lawn, it seems I've got a little of ALL of them. The crop circles weren't really crop circles, but stand-alone patches of brown dead looking grass in the middle of a lush lawn. First a few, then more, then it started getting lots of them on just of the front lawn and they were beginning to run together. The edges next to the brown spots seemed to be better grass than the main lawn, which I found strange. We called it alien marks because they were sometimes large half-circles like someone laid a 30 inch half wheel on our lawn for a week, other spots were just 6 inch oval patches. That was last year though and this year it wasn't nearly as bad, with only a handfull spread throughout the lawn. I don't want to jump the gun, but I'm still at the question of seed or sod. If I do need a new lawn, what's the procedure? Do I have to kill the fungus first? Do I have to tear out the old lawn or can I seed over it? The only reason I'm thinking to avoid sod is that the sod can come with thatch already present, I have to water it a lot at first so it doesn't die, and I'd rather not have to worry about establishing a "root system". Isn't it true that if I go with seed, ANY grass that comes up will necessarily already be well rooted? By the way, I've got bright green fresh grass popping up all around one of my trees. It is a very bright green and very thin blades, and coming up quick. And then there is the section on one side of my driveway that is almost completely green - with weeds. What is that all about? I called around and nobody has compost. They said I have to make my own. I sent out for 40 pound bag of composted cow manure at $2.49 and a few cups of corn meal. Is that good for the experiment? |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| That should work for your experiment. Make sure to water it in
fairly well. The benefitial fungus needs to get a bit moist to
get going. I'm not sure how you will be able to tell if you
killed the fungus if the grass is already shriveled up though. In terms of seeding vs sod, there are benefits to both. Seed is obviously much less expensive and there is a greater variety. It requires more attention initially and takes a while to fill in. As you have seen, sod is basically instant gratification but it costs more. Either way, you need to get rid of the top layer of sod to get good contact with the soil below. Since you liked the initial sod instillation, you will probably happier with sod if money isn't an issue. I personnally could never bring myself to pay 5 grand for grass, but then again I get a rush from seeing seeds poke through the ground. To each his own. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Great to hear the worms are doing so well! Most lawns have some grubs, healthy turf can withstand a population of them, not an infestation. Doesn't sound like you have an infestation, but you might want to dig around some more to be sure (count how many grubs per square foot and try to identify the species while you're at it). If you want to stack the odds in your favor next year, you can use beneficial nematodes in the spring, they kill grubs without killing the good guys or toxifying the yard. I'd go for sod over seed if watering a lot is a hassle, seed
would require more pamperig by far. I went rooting around in the yard today for thatch in a
couple of extra thick areas and found a wide variety of
crawlies, but no thatch, not even the summer drought dried
blades... You might find a source for bulk corn meal at, |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Jim: I may be out in leftfield here but is it possible your lawn service sprayed your lawn with an herbicide by mistake? |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Boy, this is like a really good x-files! Look at those strange
pellets, what the heck are they? They been there for months and
havent dissolved, the worms are teaming, the soil is swampy, and
the grass is almost comlpetely evenly dead? The neighbors yard
is fine, a pesticide that strong would have killed those worms I
think, it just doesnt add up! The plot thickens.
If it was me, just cause its all so puzzling, I would aerate, and cover the entire lawn with emmense amounts of corn meal for the rest of the season, then in the spring, till everything (the heck with dormant weed seeds at this point and dont add compost those worms are enjoying something already) and lay sod or seed to save money, then dont water or fertilize too much. That might do it. Good luck. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| I asked Lawn Tech to describe their fertilizer. They said
white-gray granules. They did not know when I mentioned the
yellow granules and when I suggested perhaps they applied the
wrong thing, I think the defenses went up.
I was told they truck only holds one chemical. I'm skeptical though because that would mean everybody gets the same thing that day and I know I've gotten paperwork that indicated more than one thing was applied, yet I've never seen them bring two trucks. Maybe it was multiple features of a single product they listed. I tested the pH and it is high (basic) with good alkalinity, which would be expected with a nitrate fertilizer while urea and/or ammonium fertilizers tend to be acidic. Herbicides tend to also be acidic so I'm pretty sure we have a fertilizer here, not an herbicide.
Does anybody know of any simple test I can do to be sure that these yellow granules are fertilizer and not something else?
|
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| I wonder if you could start some quick sprouts, like maybe
radishes, and apply your mystery chemical to those? While you're
at it, you could plant some in your lawn; radishes are often
used as a quick soil test to see if anything will grow there.
The same people who did your soil test may be the best ones to help out -- send a sample to them. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Jim, Someone should have suggested that the problem started 8 years ago with the sod. It appears that your sod consisted of a single cultivar of bluegrass. When the conditions were right, whatever disease you had quickly and easily killed the entire lawn. This is why your neighbors aren't infected. The occasional clumps/tufts of healthy grass are likely a different cultivar or a different species of grass altogether. At least of couple of the pictures are of Kentucky 31 Fescue or something very similar. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Hi. This story gets better and better! Jim- I'm curious to know if you had your home insurance policy reviewed to see if you could get compensation for this kind of damage. Your talking a major renovation of a substantial amount of ground, so why not explore the idea of submitting a claim for damages? |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| I received an E-mail from someone that claims fertilizing a
lawn and then not subsequently watering it will kill it. Is
there any truth to this, because I've never heard it before?
I've filed a claim with my insurance and will report back if I am covered. I'll have to send them to this forum to convince them this was not an "act of God", but an act of man. They wanted to know how it happened. I told them, "good question, together with experts and professionals, we are still investigating and have not reached a consensus". I'm aware that different varieties of grass resist different condtions of drought, disease, and soils. I'm not convinced this is a case of disease though. The diseases could have come after the top layer died and be a symptom of the condition rather than the actuall killer. It's also possible that those different varieties that showed up came in afterwards, because more than a month has passed and they still aren't very long. If the death is related to a single cultivar of blue grass, then the farm that grew the sod is at major risk as well. But I know that I had nugsege and a few other types of grasses in various spots of the lawn, as my lawn was not a perfect 100% single variety bluegrass, and those grasses died right along with the rest of the lawn. Strangely, even the weeds died, and back in June, we for sure had our share of weeds in the lawn. The weeds that are there now are new. Even stranger is how none of the blue grass seems to be recovering, but how that new grass that I didn't plant in various places is popping up very healthy. Additional info that just doesn't add up: There is a 8-12 inch section of my lawn that is along the very back, behind a set of pine trees and separated from the rest of the lawn by a bed of dirt. Lawn Tech does not fertilize that area, or touch it in any way. That grass also died. Lawn tech does not fertilize all around my shed, certainly not between the fence and shed or behind it. The lawn all around it has died, except for the 6-8 inches closest to the shed, where the blue grass lives on. There are some very healthy tufts of blue grass growing in isolation in a few parts of the lawn.
October 5, 2002 Behind pine trees, grass also died, right up to the border
with the neighbor A strip of grass behind our shed also died, but not the grass
right at the In front of the pine trees, very close to the edge of the
dirt bed, the grass The new grass that I didn't plant, is Kentucky blue grass and
is coming up Something that hurt my grass, knows about our neighbor's
border. The existence of tufts of healthy grass is confusing.
Especially The weeds are doing very well, and they stop just before the
neighbor's Testing the pellets.
|
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. Prognosis?| In the last message I meant to say that the new healthy grass
coming up under the tree is NOT Kentucky Blue Grass.
Perhaps from the photos, someone can identify the grass types in the tufts. Because of the thick dark blades, I'm inclined to say blue grass. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Certain areas that died, like on the other side of evergreens
and right next to the shed, without benefit of irrigation or
fertilizer... Could those areas have recieved runoff from irrigated and fertilized areas? A change in the slope could easily account for where the damage ends in a line. I can't imagine fertilizer killing a whole lawn if it wasn't watered in right away, that's far fetched. I could see fertilizer damaging a dormant, dry lawn, but that's already been established as a partial cause. Add to that, the fact that little of the turf was actually in contact with the ground due to excess thatch, lack of irrigation during drought (on thatch-turf) and *POOF*, no more lawn. Might experiment with the sprinklers a little to see where the run-off goes. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Barb, I tend to be with you in overall conclusions thus far.
While there have been many contributing factors, I'm mostly with "lack of irrigation during drought on thatch-turf". Our lots are each landscaped to direct water to drains we have installed in the center. I know my neighbors behind me didn't water either, but they have a different kind of grass and they are pretty much "do nothing" when it comes to lawn care and hence, have no thatch. There's no way runoff made it behind the pines. The ground was countoured during construction on each persons' lot so that water would run to a drain installed in the center of each person's yard. Plus, there is a bed of dirt 18" high that run the entire length of the back border where the pines are planted. But I have a sprinkler system back there and my thatch problem did extend to the part behind the pines. The areas where grass didn't die have very little thatch. The areas where it is alive to some degree near the pines had the benefit of shade. The edges around the shed that didn't die had the benefits of shade and lack of thatch too. The lack of thatch around the shed can be explained by being next to unwatered grass under the shed, which meant it never got watered excessively and hence, never developed a thatch problem. When Lawn Tech told me some people just let their lawn go dormant for the summer and forget about watering, he should have warned me that a lawn with a thatch like mine would die under those conditions, so don't do it. One thing that doesn't add up. Then there are the areas along side our garden surrounding the house. I just went and checked. Dead and dry, but one difference is virtually no thatch. It goes from dead blades directy to dirt whereas other parts of the lawn, I can dig up a good inch of tatch between the dead grass and the dirt.
Both areas with and without thatch problems died
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RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| WOW Just spent an hour browsing your thread. I am sorry for your loss, I understand the confusion and anger you have gone through although I have not lost a complete lawn. I too have a KBG sod lawn near Pgh, and I have to say we have similar climates. I have 8-12" topsoil over clay. Did the sod myself and continue to treat my lawn myself (just reseeded many dead spots today). I have considered professional lawn service but have not found one yet that I will consider. Over the last 4 years since my new lawn I have had grubs destroy large sections, fairy ring (which I believe you had) and Pythium Blight (http://www.ianr.unl.edu/pubs/plantdisease/g890.htm) destroy a large portion of my lawn. I cannot recall anyone mentioning this disease in any of your responses. I learned of this from this forum, a lawn care expert from Indiana read my post and I believe he diagnosed it correctly - Pythium Blight. High humidity, very warm nights and (get this) Nitrogen will accelerate this disease - and it kills. I was basically disappointed in myself for not knowing before it was too late but I learned from it. So I called "Scotts" (yes the big boys) lawn care in an attempt to have someone who knows these things take care of them before they happen or at least warn me. They complemented my lawn except the huge dead spot, which they said if they were hired would shoot some food to it so they could save it - remember nitrogen was food for the disease. They also said I had 4 types of grass in my lawn - none of which was KBG, I had a severe weed problem (I had 3 patches of clover totaling about 6 sqft over 15000 sqft) so you can see why I have never hired anyone. This year I did what you did - let the grass go dormant by not watering, save a buck, get the grass back in the fall - no way. I just had an irrigation system installed last week. As I learn from my mistakes I will try to make an attempt not to do them again. I will water, feed, apply fungicide (often) and look into corn meal, research more about nematodes, and since reading your post and responses spend some serious time on my thatch issue. Anyway, I wish you luck on your lawn, It was beautiful and you will have it again. Dave |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Thanks for the sympathy Dave. Had this happened two years ago,
I would have been very stressed out. My lawn obscession wanned
last year and I really didn't pay it much attention this year at
all. So I'm more intrigued and challenged than upset or angry.
I hope my posts aren't coming off as rattled and looking for heads to roll because really I'm not. I think I've had more fun with the death than the lush green carpet -- except for the cash it's going to cost me of course. Two years ago when the brown patches started to appear, often all by themselves in the middle of healthy lawn, we first called for help. We really didn't have many but last year it got worse. We still didn't have many. You had to go looking for them. That was diagnosed as fungus, probably fusarium blight according to Lawn Tech. They said it was our lawn rejecting the new soil, that many of the sod lawns in the new developments in the area were in far worse condition with this fungus, that it would get worse before it got better, not to worry because it would eventually go away on its own, and that he didn't think funcides available were very effective. It's interesting that Lawn Tech's recommended treatment was to continue with their recommended course of action, which was fertilize early in the morning, less frequent but heavily, and wait it out, along with cutting out the patches and replacing them with new sod if the sight really bothered me. I certainly hear you when you talk about the supposed experts recommending treatment that not only is likely to fail, but even worsen lawn problems. Lawn Tech's current diagnosis prior to getting the culture test back from the lab is that our lawn was killed by a fungus. They gave me the suspected name but I can't remember which one they suspected. I'll buy that we have a fungus now, but not as the sole cause of death. My research tells me that almost all the blights, aka "brown spot" by some accounts, have the same symptoms more or less so that's why I just refer to it as blight. I found the following description used for many different fungi: "brownish to gray irregular, circular areas a few inches to several feet in diameter. These water-soaked or scalded spots spread rapidly, becoming large, brown areas." At the following link, http://www.augustachronicle.com/stories/082302/gar_mullis.shtml, Sid Mullis seems to be one of the few "lawn experts" that has it right. You don't feed a fungus infected lawn with nitrogen fertilizer, and the ability for your lawn to fight off disease is a matter of taking care of it in all the right ways - each wrong action will contribute to disease, from poor drainage and improper watering, to dull cutting blades and fertilizing when disease is present. I'm sure my lawn is fully blighted at the moment, but I don't think that's what killed it because it died all at once, not in patches. Fungus killing a lawn usually occurs in spots that grow into large patches that can eventually spread across the entire lawn. This did not happen in our case (but I see a few neighbors that are having this problem). I'm betting the drought took it to dormant, then near death from thirst from the heavy thatch and lack of water, but still alive. Several weeks passed and at that stage, Lawn Tech hit it with fertilizer, which fed the blight and wiped it out in the course of just days, the lawn not having anything to resist it since the grass was dormant, dry, and just barely hanging in there due to thirst. I've still got some very puzzling issues though. Why did the weeds die with the lawn? My lawn was certainly not completely free of weeds prior to death. Why is there a weed heaven on the front section of my lawn that has a distinct 12 inch border between mine and my nieghbor's lawn where it will not go? If the weeds also died because of drought, why are so many healthy weeds appearing. We still have not watered this year. Why are there tufts of super healthy blue grass smack in the middle of death valley? They have not gotten any water either.
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RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| WOW! What a contrast. I have a couple of comments. 1. I have heard that if you don't water after adding fertilizer you can "burn" the grass that is around the fertilizer. When you water it in, it will dilute the fertilizer to the point that it won't cause the plants to burn. Has anyone else heard of this and could it have burned the weeds as well as the grass? 2. Could the green patches of grass be attributed to stray dogs in the neighborhood? Would the nutrients in their urine have some affect on the grass and could the moisture disolve the fertilizer pellets? Just a (akward) thought. |
RE: Was a great lawn, now it looks like a dead lawn. What's the| Jim, my great sympathy on the death of your beautiful lawn. It
would make me sick. I'm hanging around on this forum because of
my own lawn problems and I can understand the confusion AND
interest that you feel. It seems like there are a dizzying array
of items that add up to the health or sickliness of grass.
Between trying to diagnose all that may be happening in your own
lawn and then trying to digest and integrate the various
advices, some of which are in contradiction to each other --
well, you've got the project to end all projects! This thread
has been almost enjoyable in that regard -- much to ponder,
consider, experiment with. It all adds up to a good mystery.
(Would be completely entertaining if it weren't for those sad
pix of super-brown and crunchy turf.) Good luck to you in
unraveling your mystery and getting things rectified. I hope
you'll see that awesome lawn again in the future.
Karen |
